(The views listed here are my own, and do not reflect on any other website or author, including the ones quoted below. This post isn't meant to stir any trouble or past conflicts, but to show new and inexperienced authors to the fandom various methods of dealing with hate and the consequences of doing so. The authors quoted herein are expressing their views on sensitive matters as a favor to me and the blog, and I'd appreciate any hateful PMs be sent directly to my [AngstGoddess003] PM address, and not theirs. You can find the link to my FFn profile over there to the right on the Admin link menu. Thank you.)
I originally began this article with the intention of offering my opinion on the different methods of dealing with haters in the fandom. I don't like to think of myself as an expert on the topic, but I will admit I have my fair share of the fandom drinking their haterade. There are different forms and variations of haters, so I wanted to pinpoint the exact qualities of what I perceive a real hater to be.
First, I want to punctuate the fact that the word "hater" is thrown around far too casually. If someone reviews your story and points out various weaknesses but behaves neither in an outwardly snide nor intentionally hurtful way—they aren't haters. They are critics, and even when they aren't exceptionally nice while doing it,
Truer words, my friends.critics offer us an opposing view on our stories. As authors, we are incredibly biased about our stories. When writing a story, it's hard to be objective because it's yours and very personal. Critics hurt us with their comments for this reason, but to call them "haters" puts them in one of the below following "Hater" groups, and that is unfair.The review box is a place to offer authors your honest opinion on their technique, style, plot, and characterization, so that they can improve. At the same time, it's the most proper location for criticism. Even if it's not positive, that doesn't automatically make the reviewer a hater.
I know, your writing is personal, but if we didn't seek critiquing, we would never post our stories in the first place. Right? There has to be some discerning between the sharing of our art and receiving feedback if we are willing to grow and refine our skills. Granted, haters usually attack you, your story, and your readers as well. Critics, on the other hand, keep their comments related directly to your story and do not critique outside of the review box or a PM. That being said, the real, true haters are far more destructive in their actions. Many refuse to leave a review at all. Most will use the cover of anonymity to be an ass, not caring about the effects of their actions on the feelings of others or the fandom in general.
The following are the types of haters myself and fellow authors have seen in the fandom in our experiences with various comments in reviews, PMs, forum posts, blog entries, and personal emails.
1. The Flaming Hater
This is the person that thrives off of all attention gained from being unreasonably or irrationally malicious and mean-spirited by flaming blatantly in reviews and comments. The Flaming Hater is under the misguided assumption that informing an author (who otherwise wouldn't be put in their place) how much they suck is a chivalrous act. The Flaming Hater believes she is doing the fandom a service by having the balls to bring someone down a notch.
2. The Controversial Hater
This is the kind of hate that stems particularly from a controversial fic. The controversy could be something with mature, violent, or unorthodox subject matter, e.g. slash, smut, rape, or violence."The Controversial Hater" has strong objections or prejudices against the content and lashes out at the author and accuses them of being "sick," "twisted," or other various colorful names. Their 'Real Life' hatred seeps into the criticism and projects unfairly back to the author.
3. The Bandwagon Hater
This is the type of person that 'hates' an author or fic simply because of its popularity. When there is a 'bandwagon' 'hating' on the fic in question, "The Bandwagon Hater" will inevitably jump on and go along for the ride, flaming the fic mercilessly, regardless of their personal knowledge of the story. As a result, a large group emerges against the author, the story, and the readers.
4. The Mentally Unstable Hater
This person is scary because they are really fucking insane, and just so happen to hate... you. Frightening indeed. This type of hater can be a combination of the previous three but uses her own... "special methods" to making her hatred known. Messages from the "Mentally Unstable Hater" will contain a barrage of insults and threats that will either make you laugh hysterically or consider hiding under your bed for the next three months—or quite possibly, a healthy combination of both.
"Well that just fu/cking sucked. This epilogue clears nothing up and is therefore completely useless. I hate it when writers (like you) just keep adding chapters to their stories for the sake of artistic vanity. There is no point to what you've written but you did it anyway because you like to be praised. It's pathetic for you to suddenly say 'oh, whoops, Edward likes piano not medicine' in the final blo/ody chapter. You never gave any indication throughout the entire story that he was even into composition or anything like that and then BAM out of nowhere you do a complete 180. Because honestly? He works at a piano bar? WTF? Couldn't you at least have given him a proper job? What the he/ll kind of loser as/s career is that. Why the hell isn't he just a doctor like you indicated throughout the story? I could have even settled for a concert pianist. Oh right. It's because you wanted to write and get reviews but you had nothing to write about. So you just shoved in random pieces of sh/it anywhere and hoped it sounded interesting.
Like Alice being pregnant. Why do I care if she had a baby? Simple answer - I don't. Maybe if Bella and Edward had had kids, I could have mustered up a response but probably not. This story made me feel nothing; you're not that great a writer in the first place. So basically what you've done is take an under-average story and fu/ck it up even more with an epilogue that isn't worth sh/it. And yeah. Rant over. This review is MEAN. I know. But hey. It IS truthful at the very least. Now before you go all sp/astic and decide to write an A/N somewhere saying 'boo hoo, there is someone out there flaming me' can I just tell you to grow up?"
The person sent the flame anonymously—as they often do. That was my first and biggest problem with it. I was unable to defend myself, and that made me really unsettled. Then I thought about posting an author's note about it, but I knew that was exactly what she wanted. And I didn't want to prove her completely unfounded claim that I was going to go cry about it or whatever—right? Then, of course, came the hurt, because even though the story was starting to pick up steam by that point, all it took was that one really mean review to take away a lot of my confidence in my writing. What ultimately made me feel better was a PM from my friend freakyhazeleyes, who had been flamed by a person who had also put slashes in the swear words (like fu/ck). She gave me the chance to rant about it, and after I had, it felt like a huge weight had been lifted. The only public acknowledgment I made was an author's note dedicating the newest chapter of my story to "fu/cking opinions." A little snarky and childish, but it made me feel better.
They didn't take it off FF because it was anonymous. I would have replied if I could.
In the beginning I responded with, "Thanks for reading. My story will not be changing anytime soon, so if you aren't comfortable with the verbiage/banter/snark now, I suggest you discontinue reading for the sake of us both. Sincerely, Ninapolitan." After Chapter 5 or 6, I started just yelling back, "Stop reading if you don't like the words fuck, shit, dick, twat, etc. They're used in excess, and I enjoy them and won't stop because you don't understand what OOC means, ass!" After Chapter 13, I responded in the A/N's just giving a big FUCK YOU to the jackasses that couldn't understand that the story isn't for everyone, yet they continued reading beyond the first few chapters.
Example: A/N- I need a favor, you idiots that are driving me insane, you know who you are, stop sending me PM's telling me that I'm the Devil, just because they had sex in the kitchen, or that Bella likes to have sex, and Carlisle is not a pervert, those things do not make me evil, the list of other bad things I've done in my life, THOSE make me the devil. They are your narrow minded opinions, Bella likes to have sex, Carlisle is horny and I like him, and sex in the kitchen is fun.
I had mothers contacting me, telling me I was a 'satanic minion' for ruining Meyer's work and threatening to 'write to FF and have them remove me because her daughter called her a cockblocker. She then proceeded to call Bella a 'dirty whore who should die from an STD for being a bad role model for her daughter.' I responded that they should've been policing her 12 year old daughters' internet usage. FF has a rating system for a reason, and forgive me for giving her some new 'big words' to use. Was it bitchy? Absolutely. Is the kid still reading the story and reviewing every Goddamn chapter? You're damn right.
I guess the one problem that I had was in my current story, Indivisible, which is rated M/NC17, and there was a rape in the story. I was attacked for using something so sensitive as a literary device. I got accused of just being sick (even though it was Rose who was raped - hello... canon... SM had her raped too??)
I ignored most of them because the overall response was positive (not that Rose got raped, but for what it added to the story). The ones that just called me names I let go. The ones that thought I was being insensitive, I PM'd. I wanted them to know the reason behind what I did in the story and that I was going to treat it with the respect that I thought it deserved.
Other than that, I just vent to my friends and let them talk me down. I mean, my first instinct is to return the bitchy attitude, but I try to be a grown up...key word there is TRY. HAHAHA!!
I think that I am very sarcastic, and often when I get one of those reviews, I just address it in my stupid, sarcastic way in the A/N of the next chapter.
I don't get much direct hatred. Most of mine is hidden in private LJ groups and fairly quiet to my own ears. That being said, there are a couple groups out there devoted to "hating" my story and… me. They set up blogs on external sites or private Livejournal groups. It's mindboggling to me. I mean, seriously… have you ever tried making one of those things? It's a LOT of work. There's graphics and coding, and you REALLY have to be passionate about the whole mission to accomplish it.
Ouch.
My first reaction upon seeing them was one of complete confusion as to why anyone would go out of their way to create such a website out of dislike for a simple fic. I had no way to respond except to contact the moderators of the LJ groups directly—something I was not too keen on doing.
My story is not without errors. For example, I misspelled "Emmet[t]" quite frequently in my earlier chapters. A small error, but one that really pissed off my haters, and they lashed out HARD over such a silly mistake. In a humbling show of support, a few fellow authors spelled Emmet[t] the same way when they added new chapters to their fics. Oh! Then… we found this whole "Twilight" promotional band-aid where they accidentally printed them ALL with "Emmet," and I squeed and… shit… I'm digressing. But then I got tired of doing the one "t" thing, and decided I was being pretty childish by keeping it up for forty plus chapters. It made me look petty for holding a grudge for so long, and allowing it to affect my story, so I stopped.
I did eventually have to contact the moderator of this group due to some "Mentally Unstable Hatred" threats emerging from their members. To my surprise, the moderator assured me that no further personal comments of attack would be allowed in their community, and quite frankly, she was a rather… polite individual. I often appreciate the fact that the haters have a place to converge to discuss unseemly things about me where I can't view them. If the group didn't exist, they'd probably move it somewhere
Poor kitteh's got Mentally Unstable haters. We pity her soul, feel her pain, perform a thorough preliminary sweep of the house for any sign of EdsCrzyGal, and then offer her some milk to ease her PM stresses.else where the moderator is far less friendly about my personal safety and well being.
I thanked the moderator for her assistance before we ceased communication and went back to our opposite sides of the ring. If it weren't for the fact she created a whole community just to insult my talents or lack thereof, I had a feeling we could have been good friends.
When I first started writing fanfic over the summer, I did it for me. I needed a creative outlet and had fallen in love with Meyers' characters, so I stole them and wrote my own story. At first, no one was reading, and that was fine, as I wasn't expecting anyone to read or review. For several months, I got three or four reviews per chapter, and this excited me because someone was reading my story. I didn't care if I got 1000 reviews because I just had so much fun writing that that sort of feedback wasn't necessary for me. Then, after about 20+ chapters into my story, more people started reading. Eventually, the reviews poured in, and I was floored. It was exciting to hear people's thoughts on my writing, and every time my Blackberry "dinged" and told me I had a new email (i.e., a new review), I was so, so excited. Then, one day, I heard that familiar "ding" after I posted a new chapter and opened the email telling me I had a new PM. I opened it, discovered I had a new PM, and then learned someone thought I was a "hack" who "butchered" Stephenie's characters to the point that the reader questioned whether I'd even read Twilight or "a book—any book at all."
This person then continued to PM me after every single chapter I posted for over a month, sharing new ways in which I "sucked the life out of Twilight" through my writing. Apparently, they had friends (or there are just jerks aplenty who like to flame random strangers in ficdom) because soon I was getting lengthy written reports from various usernames detailing every grammatical error and "OOC moment" punctuated with the f-word and various phrases along the lines of "who the hell do you think you are?" The worst was when someone figured out my real (full) name and would address me as such in the two or three PMs they sent me. It was beyond creepy, like a scene out of that movie "Single White Female." Overall, I got about 20 or so flames over a three-month period.
Finally, I discontinued the PM feature on my account, and they stopped (I didn't realize you could block users on FF.net until much later). Not once did I respond to any of these so-called "flames." Not because I was too tough to let them bother me. No, really, it was because I was freaked out and almost stopped my story altogether. I was a first-time fanfic writer and didn't know what was normal and what wasn't. But I kept going because I love to write and refused to let some psychos with too much time on their hands ruin my fun. The only advice I can give to someone who receives flames, either in the form of PMs or reviews, is to ignore them. It may be difficult, but these people thrive on attention. Nothing you can say can earn an "I'm sorry" or "Whoops, I was wrong." They want to upset you because they somehow get off on making other people's days as miserable as their own. I mean, it's one thing to constructively criticize a story, but it's completely different to personally attack an author or criticize another's writing style without any semblance of tact.
I think if I had responded, it would have fueled the fire and wasted huge quantities of my time. It's hard to just walk away from someone who is tearing you apart for no apparent reason, but it's the only way to keep your sanity. So many reviewers in Twilight fandom are amazing, but there are a few bad apples. The thing that got me back on the horse after being ripped apart by a few nasty people was the kind words of others. There are some pretty terrible people out there, but by and large, I've found that the Twilight fandom is pretty damn cool and thanks to those sort of people, I keep writing and ignore the rest.
To respond to attacks and hatred publicly is a sore subject with me. I'm hesitant to mention it in this article, and if I hadn't been advised to do so by a few really awesome people, I wouldn't. But it's an experience that I learned much
It's a proven fact that gazing at Jacksper immediately dissolves all hatred for an indefinite amount of time. Try it. Feel anything but tingly? No. See? He cures all. It's like a miracle...from, and someone else can learn from my mistakes, then I'd feel like something positive came out of it.
That's really the downside to addressing hatred publicly. There is no positive result.
I had an experience with posting a rather epic and insulting Author's Note chapter in my story as retaliation against a small group of haters. It isn't up anymore because I removed it, choosing to move on from the negativity.
I won't go into specifics, but I will say that I received a shit-ton of supportive reviews and PMs and comments in regards to it. This would have made me feel awesome if it weren't for the fact I was basically using my readers to lash out at the people addressed in my A/N. At the time I didn't see it like this and just simply got caught up in the stress and frustration of the moment.
That wasn't fair at all.
I stand by it because I always take responsibility for my actions, but given the choice, I wouldn't do it again. It was cathartic to totally lose my shit and insult the haters that pestered me, but it was all negativity. Even the positive response from my readers was tainted with negativity towards the haters.
It was not worth it.
HATE SPREADS: It's a violent and infectiously contagious inferno that hops from one person to the next. Some haters might not even be doing it intentionally, but it happens. Think before you type. It's one thing to be a critic, and another to be a hater, and a whole 'nother zip code to be using your readers.
There is a “Killing Them with Kindness" technique. By responding to their negativity with positivity, they will inevitably begin to see you as a person. When they see you as a person — a real human being with feelings and goals and a family — they will begin to feel guilty. I prefer the… "What if someone was saying this comment to your sister? Or mother? Or present/future daughter?" Some may begin to actually think. They begin to wonder what they would say if someone spoke like this to someone they loved and cared about.
They'd lose their shit.
If they don't admit their guilt then, they're either lying through their teeth, ridiculously stubborn and proud to a frightening fault, or are really, truly heartless individuals.
Another method is to ignore hate all together. I prefer this because I'm a total emo hermit and would rather not invite conflict. This has its own consequences, of course. By ignoring it, you're allowing it to fester and grow among different groups of readers and the like. Some may be okay with this, some may not. It's a personal preference.
In the end, you can't let the haters break you down. It's difficult to manage, yes. It's emotionally exhausting, and there are some days you may question why you even bother participating in this fandom at all.
This is a good question.
Why do we bother?
That's simple.
We can't allow the haters to overshadow the lovers. Because when that happens, we are basically admitting that negativity is more significant to us than positivity. We should pay the lovers tenfold the attention that we show the haters, because they are the ones that deserve it.
I say… when coming face to face with hate, keep your head up, your fingers poised, your armor thick, and your intentions true. Make fic, not war.
You can't go wrong with that.
(I'd like to extend my sincerest thanks to all who made this article possible and put their necks on the line to share their experiences. PastichePen for the beta and author recs and awesome advice, Gustariana for author recs, americnxidiot, ninapolitan, qjmom, and... Oxymoronic for getting me her comments JUST in the nick of time, and I swear dude, I did a little dance when I got the email. It was embarrassing, but totally merited. All of the many authors I've been bugging relentlessly for the last week, I'm so sorry for the messages! And Angel, siDEADde, Smellyia, and heck... even Avalonia and DebussyThis for listening to me panic for choosing this topic like the complete fucking masochist that I am. I love you all!)
I originally began this article with the intention of offering my opinion on the different methods of dealing with haters in the fandom. I don't like to think of myself as an expert on the topic, but I will admit I have my fair share of the fandom drinking their haterade. There are different forms and variations of haters, so I wanted to pinpoint the exact qualities of what I perceive a real hater to be.
What is a Hater?
First, I want to punctuate the fact that the word "hater" is thrown around far too casually. If someone reviews your story and points out various weaknesses but behaves neither in an outwardly snide nor intentionally hurtful way—they aren't haters. They are critics, and even when they aren't exceptionally nice while doing it,
Truer words, my friends.I know, your writing is personal, but if we didn't seek critiquing, we would never post our stories in the first place. Right? There has to be some discerning between the sharing of our art and receiving feedback if we are willing to grow and refine our skills. Granted, haters usually attack you, your story, and your readers as well. Critics, on the other hand, keep their comments related directly to your story and do not critique outside of the review box or a PM. That being said, the real, true haters are far more destructive in their actions. Many refuse to leave a review at all. Most will use the cover of anonymity to be an ass, not caring about the effects of their actions on the feelings of others or the fandom in general.
The following are the types of haters myself and fellow authors have seen in the fandom in our experiences with various comments in reviews, PMs, forum posts, blog entries, and personal emails.
Types of "Haters"
1. The Flaming Hater
This is the person that thrives off of all attention gained from being unreasonably or irrationally malicious and mean-spirited by flaming blatantly in reviews and comments. The Flaming Hater is under the misguided assumption that informing an author (who otherwise wouldn't be put in their place) how much they suck is a chivalrous act. The Flaming Hater believes she is doing the fandom a service by having the balls to bring someone down a notch.
2. The Controversial Hater
This is the kind of hate that stems particularly from a controversial fic. The controversy could be something with mature, violent, or unorthodox subject matter, e.g. slash, smut, rape, or violence."The Controversial Hater" has strong objections or prejudices against the content and lashes out at the author and accuses them of being "sick," "twisted," or other various colorful names. Their 'Real Life' hatred seeps into the criticism and projects unfairly back to the author.
3. The Bandwagon Hater
This is the type of person that 'hates' an author or fic simply because of its popularity. When there is a 'bandwagon' 'hating' on the fic in question, "The Bandwagon Hater" will inevitably jump on and go along for the ride, flaming the fic mercilessly, regardless of their personal knowledge of the story. As a result, a large group emerges against the author, the story, and the readers.
4. The Mentally Unstable Hater
This person is scary because they are really fucking insane, and just so happen to hate... you. Frightening indeed. This type of hater can be a combination of the previous three but uses her own... "special methods" to making her hatred known. Messages from the "Mentally Unstable Hater" will contain a barrage of insults and threats that will either make you laugh hysterically or consider hiding under your bed for the next three months—or quite possibly, a healthy combination of both.
Author Experiences
Americnxidiot
(The following is a flaming review received for her story, You Get Me Closer To God and is a great example of "The Flaming Hater")
(The following is a flaming review received for her story, You Get Me Closer To God and is a great example of "The Flaming Hater")
"Well that just fu/cking sucked. This epilogue clears nothing up and is therefore completely useless. I hate it when writers (like you) just keep adding chapters to their stories for the sake of artistic vanity. There is no point to what you've written but you did it anyway because you like to be praised. It's pathetic for you to suddenly say 'oh, whoops, Edward likes piano not medicine' in the final blo/ody chapter. You never gave any indication throughout the entire story that he was even into composition or anything like that and then BAM out of nowhere you do a complete 180. Because honestly? He works at a piano bar? WTF? Couldn't you at least have given him a proper job? What the he/ll kind of loser as/s career is that. Why the hell isn't he just a doctor like you indicated throughout the story? I could have even settled for a concert pianist. Oh right. It's because you wanted to write and get reviews but you had nothing to write about. So you just shoved in random pieces of sh/it anywhere and hoped it sounded interesting.
The person sent the flame anonymously—as they often do. That was my first and biggest problem with it. I was unable to defend myself, and that made me really unsettled. Then I thought about posting an author's note about it, but I knew that was exactly what she wanted. And I didn't want to prove her completely unfounded claim that I was going to go cry about it or whatever—right? Then, of course, came the hurt, because even though the story was starting to pick up steam by that point, all it took was that one really mean review to take away a lot of my confidence in my writing. What ultimately made me feel better was a PM from my friend freakyhazeleyes, who had been flamed by a person who had also put slashes in the swear words (like fu/ck). She gave me the chance to rant about it, and after I had, it felt like a huge weight had been lifted. The only public acknowledgment I made was an author's note dedicating the newest chapter of my story to "fu/cking opinions." A little snarky and childish, but it made me feel better.
They didn't take it off FF because it was anonymous. I would have replied if I could.
Ninapolitan
(In response to a "Controversy Hater" received for her story, The Bella Swan Diaries, and how she reacted.)
(In response to a "Controversy Hater" received for her story, The Bella Swan Diaries, and how she reacted.)
In the beginning I responded with, "Thanks for reading. My story will not be changing anytime soon, so if you aren't comfortable with the verbiage/banter/snark now, I suggest you discontinue reading for the sake of us both. Sincerely, Ninapolitan." After Chapter 5 or 6, I started just yelling back, "Stop reading if you don't like the words fuck, shit, dick, twat, etc. They're used in excess, and I enjoy them and won't stop because you don't understand what OOC means, ass!" After Chapter 13, I responded in the A/N's just giving a big FUCK YOU to the jackasses that couldn't understand that the story isn't for everyone, yet they continued reading beyond the first few chapters.
Example: A/N- I need a favor, you idiots that are driving me insane, you know who you are, stop sending me PM's telling me that I'm the Devil, just because they had sex in the kitchen, or that Bella likes to have sex, and Carlisle is not a pervert, those things do not make me evil, the list of other bad things I've done in my life, THOSE make me the devil. They are your narrow minded opinions, Bella likes to have sex, Carlisle is horny and I like him, and sex in the kitchen is fun.
I had mothers contacting me, telling me I was a 'satanic minion' for ruining Meyer's work and threatening to 'write to FF and have them remove me because her daughter called her a cockblocker. She then proceeded to call Bella a 'dirty whore who should die from an STD for being a bad role model for her daughter.' I responded that they should've been policing her 12 year old daughters' internet usage. FF has a rating system for a reason, and forgive me for giving her some new 'big words' to use. Was it bitchy? Absolutely. Is the kid still reading the story and reviewing every Goddamn chapter? You're damn right.
Qjmom
(In response to "Controversy Hatred" received for her story, Indivisible, and how she reacted.)
(In response to "Controversy Hatred" received for her story, Indivisible, and how she reacted.)
I guess the one problem that I had was in my current story, Indivisible, which is rated M/NC17, and there was a rape in the story. I was attacked for using something so sensitive as a literary device. I got accused of just being sick (even though it was Rose who was raped - hello... canon... SM had her raped too??)
I ignored most of them because the overall response was positive (not that Rose got raped, but for what it added to the story). The ones that just called me names I let go. The ones that thought I was being insensitive, I PM'd. I wanted them to know the reason behind what I did in the story and that I was going to treat it with the respect that I thought it deserved.
Other than that, I just vent to my friends and let them talk me down. I mean, my first instinct is to return the bitchy attitude, but I try to be a grown up...key word there is TRY. HAHAHA!!
I think that I am very sarcastic, and often when I get one of those reviews, I just address it in my stupid, sarcastic way in the A/N of the next chapter.
AngstGoddes003 (me)
(In response to "Bandwagon Hatred", "Mentally Unstable Hatred", and different consequences of responding to haters.)
(In response to "Bandwagon Hatred", "Mentally Unstable Hatred", and different consequences of responding to haters.)
I don't get much direct hatred. Most of mine is hidden in private LJ groups and fairly quiet to my own ears. That being said, there are a couple groups out there devoted to "hating" my story and… me. They set up blogs on external sites or private Livejournal groups. It's mindboggling to me. I mean, seriously… have you ever tried making one of those things? It's a LOT of work. There's graphics and coding, and you REALLY have to be passionate about the whole mission to accomplish it.
Ouch.
My first reaction upon seeing them was one of complete confusion as to why anyone would go out of their way to create such a website out of dislike for a simple fic. I had no way to respond except to contact the moderators of the LJ groups directly—something I was not too keen on doing.
My story is not without errors. For example, I misspelled "Emmet[t]" quite frequently in my earlier chapters. A small error, but one that really pissed off my haters, and they lashed out HARD over such a silly mistake. In a humbling show of support, a few fellow authors spelled Emmet[t] the same way when they added new chapters to their fics. Oh! Then… we found this whole "Twilight" promotional band-aid where they accidentally printed them ALL with "Emmet," and I squeed and… shit… I'm digressing. But then I got tired of doing the one "t" thing, and decided I was being pretty childish by keeping it up for forty plus chapters. It made me look petty for holding a grudge for so long, and allowing it to affect my story, so I stopped.
I did eventually have to contact the moderator of this group due to some "Mentally Unstable Hatred" threats emerging from their members. To my surprise, the moderator assured me that no further personal comments of attack would be allowed in their community, and quite frankly, she was a rather… polite individual. I often appreciate the fact that the haters have a place to converge to discuss unseemly things about me where I can't view them. If the group didn't exist, they'd probably move it somewhere
Poor kitteh's got Mentally Unstable haters. We pity her soul, feel her pain, perform a thorough preliminary sweep of the house for any sign of EdsCrzyGal, and then offer her some milk to ease her PM stresses.I thanked the moderator for her assistance before we ceased communication and went back to our opposite sides of the ring. If it weren't for the fact she created a whole community just to insult my talents or lack thereof, I had a feeling we could have been good friends.
Oxymoronic08
(In response to "Mentally Unstable Hatred" received from her story, Innocent, Vigilant, Ordinary, and how she reacted.)
(In response to "Mentally Unstable Hatred" received from her story, Innocent, Vigilant, Ordinary, and how she reacted.)
When I first started writing fanfic over the summer, I did it for me. I needed a creative outlet and had fallen in love with Meyers' characters, so I stole them and wrote my own story. At first, no one was reading, and that was fine, as I wasn't expecting anyone to read or review. For several months, I got three or four reviews per chapter, and this excited me because someone was reading my story. I didn't care if I got 1000 reviews because I just had so much fun writing that that sort of feedback wasn't necessary for me. Then, after about 20+ chapters into my story, more people started reading. Eventually, the reviews poured in, and I was floored. It was exciting to hear people's thoughts on my writing, and every time my Blackberry "dinged" and told me I had a new email (i.e., a new review), I was so, so excited. Then, one day, I heard that familiar "ding" after I posted a new chapter and opened the email telling me I had a new PM. I opened it, discovered I had a new PM, and then learned someone thought I was a "hack" who "butchered" Stephenie's characters to the point that the reader questioned whether I'd even read Twilight or "a book—any book at all."
This person then continued to PM me after every single chapter I posted for over a month, sharing new ways in which I "sucked the life out of Twilight" through my writing. Apparently, they had friends (or there are just jerks aplenty who like to flame random strangers in ficdom) because soon I was getting lengthy written reports from various usernames detailing every grammatical error and "OOC moment" punctuated with the f-word and various phrases along the lines of "who the hell do you think you are?" The worst was when someone figured out my real (full) name and would address me as such in the two or three PMs they sent me. It was beyond creepy, like a scene out of that movie "Single White Female." Overall, I got about 20 or so flames over a three-month period.
Finally, I discontinued the PM feature on my account, and they stopped (I didn't realize you could block users on FF.net until much later). Not once did I respond to any of these so-called "flames." Not because I was too tough to let them bother me. No, really, it was because I was freaked out and almost stopped my story altogether. I was a first-time fanfic writer and didn't know what was normal and what wasn't. But I kept going because I love to write and refused to let some psychos with too much time on their hands ruin my fun. The only advice I can give to someone who receives flames, either in the form of PMs or reviews, is to ignore them. It may be difficult, but these people thrive on attention. Nothing you can say can earn an "I'm sorry" or "Whoops, I was wrong." They want to upset you because they somehow get off on making other people's days as miserable as their own. I mean, it's one thing to constructively criticize a story, but it's completely different to personally attack an author or criticize another's writing style without any semblance of tact.
I think if I had responded, it would have fueled the fire and wasted huge quantities of my time. It's hard to just walk away from someone who is tearing you apart for no apparent reason, but it's the only way to keep your sanity. So many reviewers in Twilight fandom are amazing, but there are a few bad apples. The thing that got me back on the horse after being ripped apart by a few nasty people was the kind words of others. There are some pretty terrible people out there, but by and large, I've found that the Twilight fandom is pretty damn cool and thanks to those sort of people, I keep writing and ignore the rest.
Responding to Attacks and Hatred
To respond to attacks and hatred publicly is a sore subject with me. I'm hesitant to mention it in this article, and if I hadn't been advised to do so by a few really awesome people, I wouldn't. But it's an experience that I learned much
It's a proven fact that gazing at Jacksper immediately dissolves all hatred for an indefinite amount of time. Try it. Feel anything but tingly? No. See? He cures all. It's like a miracle...That's really the downside to addressing hatred publicly. There is no positive result.
I had an experience with posting a rather epic and insulting Author's Note chapter in my story as retaliation against a small group of haters. It isn't up anymore because I removed it, choosing to move on from the negativity.
I won't go into specifics, but I will say that I received a shit-ton of supportive reviews and PMs and comments in regards to it. This would have made me feel awesome if it weren't for the fact I was basically using my readers to lash out at the people addressed in my A/N. At the time I didn't see it like this and just simply got caught up in the stress and frustration of the moment.
That wasn't fair at all.
I stand by it because I always take responsibility for my actions, but given the choice, I wouldn't do it again. It was cathartic to totally lose my shit and insult the haters that pestered me, but it was all negativity. Even the positive response from my readers was tainted with negativity towards the haters.
It was not worth it.
HATE SPREADS: It's a violent and infectiously contagious inferno that hops from one person to the next. Some haters might not even be doing it intentionally, but it happens. Think before you type. It's one thing to be a critic, and another to be a hater, and a whole 'nother zip code to be using your readers.
There is a “Killing Them with Kindness" technique. By responding to their negativity with positivity, they will inevitably begin to see you as a person. When they see you as a person — a real human being with feelings and goals and a family — they will begin to feel guilty. I prefer the… "What if someone was saying this comment to your sister? Or mother? Or present/future daughter?" Some may begin to actually think. They begin to wonder what they would say if someone spoke like this to someone they loved and cared about.
They'd lose their shit.
If they don't admit their guilt then, they're either lying through their teeth, ridiculously stubborn and proud to a frightening fault, or are really, truly heartless individuals.
Another method is to ignore hate all together. I prefer this because I'm a total emo hermit and would rather not invite conflict. This has its own consequences, of course. By ignoring it, you're allowing it to fester and grow among different groups of readers and the like. Some may be okay with this, some may not. It's a personal preference.
In the end, you can't let the haters break you down. It's difficult to manage, yes. It's emotionally exhausting, and there are some days you may question why you even bother participating in this fandom at all.
This is a good question.
Why do we bother?
That's simple.
We can't allow the haters to overshadow the lovers. Because when that happens, we are basically admitting that negativity is more significant to us than positivity. We should pay the lovers tenfold the attention that we show the haters, because they are the ones that deserve it.
I say… when coming face to face with hate, keep your head up, your fingers poised, your armor thick, and your intentions true. Make fic, not war.
You can't go wrong with that.
(I'd like to extend my sincerest thanks to all who made this article possible and put their necks on the line to share their experiences. PastichePen for the beta and author recs and awesome advice, Gustariana for author recs, americnxidiot, ninapolitan, qjmom, and... Oxymoronic for getting me her comments JUST in the nick of time, and I swear dude, I did a little dance when I got the email. It was embarrassing, but totally merited. All of the many authors I've been bugging relentlessly for the last week, I'm so sorry for the messages! And Angel, siDEADde, Smellyia, and heck... even Avalonia and DebussyThis for listening to me panic for choosing this topic like the complete fucking masochist that I am. I love you all!)
I appreciate what you wrote. Very much so in fact. I never quite understood the point of flaming or whatever you want to call it. If a reader doesn't agree or doesn't like it, just don't comment!
ReplyDeleteI guess I've been lucky enough to only ever get one rude review, but it was enough to make me doubt myself. I walked around for a few days feeling bad for myself before it hit me. I ultimately write for my own enjoyment and if some likes it? Fantastic! If they let me know in a review? Indescribable! If the say something rude? Dude, I didn't force you to read it! And no, i won't change my story just for you.
So, ultimately, although I've never gotten it near as bad as some of you, but I'd like to think we can band together in this and just lift eachother up. In any way we can.
It's about supporting the hobby, and those who don't agree? Well, it's ultimately their loss for ruining what could potentially end up being a fun and uplifting friendship.
Does that make sense? I hope so. Anyway, I'm super happy you guys are adressing all these issues, it has made me more aware of how I present myself through reviews and PM's.
So thank you all!!!
dude. if i got any of the negative reivews or comments that any of you have gotten i would just kill myself.
ReplyDeletei am proud of you all for a handling it the best
way you can and maybe a hater will see this and
make a better, more mature choice next time.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteI very seriously enjoyed this. I believe that people who choose to leave unnecessarily negative comments (the haters) forget that these stories are written by real people who have real feelings, and that mean spirited comments HURT.
The negative feedback I get is on the Mypsace forums, of all places. A few weeks back one of my readers sent me a link to a Myspace thread that discussed my story, and I decided to check it out. Fanfiction is not discussed a whole lot on Myspace, as I have now discovered, but for whatever reason my story seems to be a hot topic. Readers either love it or hate it with a fiery passion. Those who hate it have commented that I "am ruining the original series," that I "ignore the best parts of the series, like Renesme" (actually that comment put a smile on my face, because the opinion of any reader who considers Renesme to be the best part of the novels does not hold any value to me), that I am "a horrible writer who probably hasn't even read Twilight," and that "the idea of the Cullen's as humans is disgusting."
The reader who sent me the link offered to post a comment for me, since I do not have a Myspace account of my own. I thanked everyone for reading, briefly explained the idea behind my story, and suggested that they check out other Twilight fanfics that might be more to their liking.
I don't think I will ever understand the motivation behind unnecessarily mean comments, but I also know that I have not received comments anywhere near as negative as other authors have. I read several stories by Daddy's Little Cannibal and about a month or so ago in one of her author's notes she informed readers that she was experiencing some hater attacks... by the "mentally unstable haters."
These haters told her to stop writing, to take her stories down, and to kill herself. One individual even went as far as to write a suicide note she could use when she kills herself. I was sick with disgust after reading that. That is not what this community is supposed to be about. I applaud DLC for continuing to write her magnificent stories and I can not even imagine the type of strength she must possess to be able to continue to do so after receiving such comments.
So thank you for calling out the haters and hopefully this will cause some of them to pause and think for a moment, before bagging on another story.
JMeyer
"That's really the downside to addressing hatred publicly. There is no positive result."
ReplyDelete*chuckle* YES. It's something that's learned inevitably in the trenches. Sometimes even accidental venting can be interpreted by fans as encouragement to go and jump on the person complaining, even if that wasn't the intent. Had a bad experience with that a while back. Learned my lesson and now try to keep the trap shut. LOL!
That said, there ARE two cases where I WILL respond to a critical review. This is not necessarily a hating review, but a critical review. I should add that some reviews are written for you, others are written for others, not the author -- like a book review in a magazine. They're designed to sell the story to readers. In fandom, we tend to call them recs, but a true review may involve some critical commentary about what the story could have done better, even if it's not overall a critical review.
And this is the sort I'm referring to. Something sent to me, I respond to always, whether email, LJ, archives, whatever. That's a holdover from publishing days. *grin*
I like following links from my site counter, to see what's said when it's 'raw' -- not tailored for me to hear. It's useful, how people respond to the story when you're not (ostensibly) "listening." I don't always reply (in fact, I usually don't, as it's not my intent to make people nervous). But what will get me to respond in these cases is one of two things:
1) A critical review that *misrepresents* a story. This has occasionally happened, although it's rare. Readers have the right to their opinions, even if they're not flattering. But if they are posting a review for others but portray the story INCORRECTLY, then I'll step in. It's usually useless, but I do feel it important to correct the error -- not the negative review itself, but the *error*. And I do try to keep that distinction. (Fortunately, this has only happened a handful of times.)
2) Similarly, a misrepresentation of the story that I find really offensive -- *even if it's meant to be positive* -- will get a correction. This has happened really only once. CLIMB THE WIND (an X-Men novel) was advertized on an archive as, "Rape, Torture, Kewl!" (I kid you not.) I was horrified. I immediately emailed the owner of the site and asked that the rec/review be removed, despite the fact she intended that as a *positive* review. It is SO not what that story is about (the story's actually based on Homer's ILIAD). I did not want it advertized in that way. It took a couple months, but it was eventually removed. I probably offended her, but I really don't care.
The reasons I respond to these is that they are, well, not quite libel, as you can't relaly "libel" a story, but they're close. It's a *misrepresentation*. Critique the story -- that's fine. But critique it for what it IS, not what it isn't.
So those are my only "exceptions" to the "don't reply" stance. Fortunately, I've not received a lot of flames. Some of the worst have been for "Letters and Papers from Prison," which is a PG X-Men story. No sex, not even much obscenity. You wouldn't think it would bring out the haters. But it does. Why? It's about the Holocaust. ;> (It's also the one short story on the site that, although written in early 2001, STILL gets regular feedback from readers and has probably received more feedback, total, than ANY other story, any fandom, even the novels. So if it gets a few flames? Eh. No skin off my nose.)
Wow, people can't possibly say they dislike your work because they don't like it. Nope, they're just out to get you
ReplyDeleteThe idea of communities being created for the specific purpose of bringing people together to hate on a creative work that someone has put their heart and soul into...or even just a little bit of effort...bothers me.
ReplyDeleteAnd by "bothers me" I mean, makes me feel physically ill.
The creation of communities is my favourite thing about the internet and about "fandoms." People from all over the world, from so very different walks of life come together and care about each other. I know of two fanfic authors (in a different fandom) who met because they wrote similiar stories. They are now married and run a joint website for their fanfic. That's awesome.
"Hater" communities seem to be the complete antithesis of all I do online. It's the whole reason for my online presence, however insignificant it might be. I like meeting people I would never have known existed otherwise. Especially in communities that are supportive of the creation and promotion of art. To know that there are people within this community who gather together to speak bad about other members...is kind of disgusting.
And I would love to do something about this.
But, of course, what we resist persists. We cannot fight them with hate. In fact, we can't really "fight" them at all. They are apart of our community. They only thing to do is to spread love.
So, I just wanted everyone in this community (who happens to be reading this comment..but, I think there are other ways I express this as well) that I love you.
I love you for being here. I love you for staying up late on chat and talking about completely unrelated things with me (music, movies, nerdfighting...etc). I love you for being supportive and funny and real. I love you for reaching out when you need something and for being there for others to reach out to.
Most of all, I love this community for the creation of beautiful, inspiring, funny, angsty, sexy, emotional, ugly, fluffy, wonderful art.
Thank you.
Nicely stated. It is so hard to deal with the negative comments. Really. Even one review out of a sea of hundreds can devastate an author. And even knowing full well that they are a flamer or a troll doesn't help to ease the hurt that's inflicted. Sticks & stones can break bones, but words have the potential to be the most devastating of all.
ReplyDeleteWow, thanks for the comments guys!
ReplyDeleteMinisinoo - I totally know what you mean about sometimes having to correct critics in their misguided assumptions of a story/plot/etc. It's always good to converse with critics and set them straight on these things. Then, they can really critique your story, and the critique will be more useful to us, because it isn't being made under false summations.
It also sounds like "Letters and Papers From Prison" has gotten some controversy hatred. You are a brave woman to approach such a sensitive subject in fic! It's only one reason of thousands why you are so awesome and respected.
Anonymous - This is a perfect illustration of using a cover of anonymity to make sarcastic/critical/negative comments, and if you had really read the article you would understand that no one is speaking of the people who simply dislike a fic.
Furthermore, I feel if you hadn't felt it necessary to hide, we could have discussed it like two mature adults so I could defend the meaning of my article, and maybe helped you see it from a clearer vantage.
Instead, I must defend it here, which makes me sad for many reasons.
It's perfectly acceptable to dislike a fic and make any negative criticism known in reviews and PMs. They are considered critics, and as I say in the beginning of my article, critics are a good thing, even when they aren't being nice about it.
Haters wouldn't attack a fic in PMs and reviews unless they were anonymous (hmmm...), and when they do so, they are usually only commenting to intentionally insult the author (personally) and not for the sake of offering a constructively critical opinion.
I could have blocked this anon comment from being seen, but like Angel says, I'm not big on censorship, and regardless what you may think, I can handle (and even enjoy) criticism (Even the anonymous kind). I AM compelled to correct you however when I assure you that your comment suggests that you are misunderstanding the purpose of this article, and I do hope you will read it again from a more objective perspective and attempt to grasp the moral behind it all.
If anyone sees this anon comment and feels compelled to defend or address it any way, I ask that you please DON'T. I've defended the meaning of my article, and there's no reason to dwell or cause conflict. It would contradict the entire message of the article that I worked so hard to convey.
Thanks everyone for the comments!
<3
I love to read anything AG writes, This blog is filled with tons of great stuff and this post was no exception.... =)... as an avid FF Reader, I am sorry on behalf of the ugly side of us "haters" in any form...And I thank all FF authors for turning the other cheeck and continuting their stories for the rest of us... Your all great! and Braver than the Haters... xoxoxoxo
ReplyDelete~babbles
I recently received a hater review from an anonymous person who called me "sick" and "disgusting" for even mentioning that Emmett and Jasper were partners in my story and portraying them in a loving, normal relationship. (The story is entirely from Edward and Bella's POV and Em/Jas are only mutual friends, very small roles in the story). I was shocked. Of course they were anonymous. Bigots are always anonymous, they don't have the stones to stand up for their beliefs publicly. I fixated on it for over a day and then decided to just delete it and not comment about it in any future a/n. They aren't worth the energy it would take for my fingers to type anything about it. Well maybe as a big old eff you, I'll talk talking about their relationship more.
ReplyDeleteI have gotten critical pm's and they sting, but make me a better writer. I appreciate the time it takes to write them. If you care enough to tell me what I'm doing wrong, you obviously care about the story in some fashion. (Even if it is that I'm a shitty writer with a crap storyline).
I am positively sickened by the responses posted by several authors. People are just crazy sometimes.
Thanks for posting this though, it makes me feel better that I'm not the only one out there who is "sick". My story isn't even very good in comparison to the masterpieces of the authors above! It was just something I kicked around and then decided to finally post.
What do you do when a review starts off as simply critical, and then begins to curse at you in the last couple of lines? Which disinction does that fall under?
ReplyDeleteSplit personality disorder? 'I started off being normal but now my crazy personality is taking over', perhaps?
I take issue with the fact that you did not mention people who have opinions on stories etc, and that opinion happens to be great dislike. I hate stories because they are shoddily researched, poorly written, pretentious, etc. I have very strong opinions and take authors seriously when they say that welcome feedback. I'm going to say what I think--not in a rude, unkind way, but I will not sugar-coat things to make them easier for an author to hear.
ReplyDeleteThe world of writing is not a happy place. You will get criticized for every small thing, and an author has to be able to take every review and decide whether or not it's valid. That does NOT mean enjoy the happy, gushing ones and ignore all the rest. Everyone has a right to say what they think, especially on a public place like the internet, and authors who make their work available to billions of people worldwide have to be able to take it. Everyone gets hate. There are people who hate the Beatles. There are people who hate CS Lewis. There are people who hate Fall Out Boy. It's part of life. No one is a truly nice person, no less on the internet. To expect respect on the internet is ludicrous.
Honestly? To post a fake chapter like that and then to write an essay like this says a lot to me about your level of either self-esteem or ignorance about the internet and/or the world of writing.
Wow! That was an eyeopener for me. I have so much love for all of you who write the stories that make me proud to pretend to be a writer and proud to be female because we are so fuckin' smart!!!!! Anyway, I know that there had been flamers and retards but most of you take it all with a grain of salt and hearing your reactions are often quite funny. As a matter of fact I was laughing my ass of when I was hearing the first part because although I know it gets to you, you all take it in stride and are able to turn it around and make it funny for us. Then I read Oxy's comments...
ReplyDeleteThat made me sad. You know, if we were in an actual writers round table and sharing thoughts and criticisms this would NEVER be ok. It is so wrong that people use the internet to be petty and small and mean. I am so sorry that this shit happens. I'm living in fantasyland thinking that we are all writers just learning from eachother and its just so sad that people take this shit so seriously that they would attack someone like that. Sad.
Anyway, thanks for sharing ladies and thank you so much for opening my eyes to the petty jealousy happening out there. I will make sure to review more often and let you all know how much I love and appreciate your talent because for the most part you all deserve the praise not the hate. I now I am even more proud because your all so brave.
Claire - No. I like your assumption. Criticism that starts out constructive and then abruptly veers to verbal personal assaults is a cause for concern in regards to their mental state. Therefore, I will dub it the Mentally Unstable Hater, though it sounds like maybe a Flamer was trying REALLY hard to keep it nice and then just... gave up.
ReplyDeleteIt makes me sigh.
-Sleepinginfear - I take issue with the fact that you wouldn't call someone who greatly dislikes a story -- a critic. That's what I would refer to them as, depending on how they approached the author about said dislike of fic. If you enjoy being critical in reviews and PMs to the authors, I don't see the big deal, so long as you aren't being unnecessarily harsh and malicious towards them when you do so.
Again -- and I kind of feel like a broken record here, but I will repeat myself because it is important -- criticism is OKAY. It is useful, helpful, and a credit to the community when done constructively.
EXAMPLE-
Criticism: Your characterization here is weak and I don't really understand where he's coming from. Not to mention, the plot is getting so lost that I literally have no desire to continue reading anymore. Was there a plot to begin with? You have so much room for improvement, and all of the grammatical errors make it difficult to focus on the imagery. I won't be reading anymore.
Hating: You call yourself a writer? Oh, I guess since you get two or three good reviews you find it necessary to continue tormenting us with talentless crap falesly labeled art. You should go back to working your boring and mediocre day job while consuming yourself in delusions of literary grandeur that will never happen because you are an ass. I'm fairly convinced by this point, if you died tomorrow, no one would miss you.
You see how the critic limits their negative comments to the story? The hater will veer of course and find it necessary to insult or threaten the author, while offering hardly any constructive criticism whatsoever.
There's a big difference.
And I never said not to expect hate, I just said not to let it get you down. What would a first time writer do if they posted a story and received a hater review like that? They may consider leaving and never posting again. I might not blame them. Just because hate is unavoidable doesn't mean we can't find positive ways of dealing with it. Would you not agree?
And yes. I do say ignore all the HATE. If it's only meant to intentionally hurt the author and NOT meant to offer anything constructive in the way of criticism, then there is no point in paying it any heed.
I'm not ignorant about the internet at all. Now more than ever I expect hate and take more than most will ever experience. If I can use these events like the fakeout A/N to turn them into something positive and explain the consequences to authors who are less experienced in being hated, then I will do so gladly. It speaks nothing of my self-esteem, which -- mind you -- most authors tend to have a varying low level of, especially in the face of unfair hatred against them.
Hate is a strong word. I don't use it lightly, and when I say the word "hater", I'm talking about a particularly cruel and vicious individual, not someone who is merely critical. PLEASE keep this in mind when commenting.
searchingforstories - I was surprised about Oxy's hate as well. Threats are never something to be taken lightly. It's a scary world on the interwebs. It's hard to discern when someone is being facetious, and when someone is really threatening your safety. And kudos to her for not quitting. It takes a brave person.
Thanks everyone for the comments! I'm excited to see such a response! Even the critical ones.
;)
Okay. First, I completely agree with what sleepingfear said, above. Second, I'd just like to point something out.
ReplyDeleteWhen you have a negative review that points out specific flaws in the story, it's a criticism (although they still get bashed by so-called "fans"). When you have a negative review that simply states that the reviewer doesn't like the story, although without pointing out specific reasons, it's a "Hater".
When you have a positive review that details the specific things that the reviewer likes about the story, it's a good review. When you have a positive review along the lines of, "omg that was so f*cking amazing!," it's still a good review.
The bottom line is, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to argue that someone is a "hater" because they just say they don't like the story, then what is someone who just says they love a story?
In that same vein, you mention people who personally attack the author (namely, yourself). How is this different from people who make positive assumptions about an author they don't know? Obviously, the mindset is to ignore the negative reviews and take a positive review as a positive review, no matter what. Furthermore, using "Wide Awake" as an example, I know people who made those sorts of comments regarding your A/Ns (especially the fake chapter). When you write something personal, not fictional, it opens you up for people to take issue with you personally. You can't say that unjust accusations are being made about you, personally, when you write something like that, that attacks specific people personally.
And I utterly detest the idea of a "bandwagon hater." Perhaps there are about four non-conformists out there who just hate anything that's popular, but the great majority of people don't. I can tell you this from my own personal experience. There was a fic that I'd seen recced many, many different places as utterly amazing. It was constantly up on lion-lamb, so finally I checked it out. It was okay- nothing special. Did I specially hate it because it was so popular? No. Was I annoyed because of the popularity of the fic, that I felt was undeserved? Yes.
continued...
...part 2.
ReplyDeleteAnother point. There are authors who have specific people who continually spam their reviews or PMs. Then, there are people who have MANY people disliking their work. If I were in that position, I'd look at the numbers, instead of assuming that all authors' haters are the same.
In addition, I read your response to the anonymous comment posted above. I thought it to be unnecessary and rude for you to attack that person simply because they wrote anonymously. Not everyone has a livejournal or blogspot account that they can use to comment. And frankly, their comment was not offensive or 'hater'-like at all. They made a sarcastic, legitimate criticism of your over broad classification of "Bandwagon" haters.
In regards to what you said in response to "Claire": You kind of undercut yourself there. I though the point of a hater was that they made no effort to be nice, yet according to you, even if someone begins by making legitimate criticism, and then doesn't finish quite so diplomatically, they're still a hater? And a mentally unstable one at that. The fact is, there are people out there who aren't always politically correct, or maybe don't have the cleanest vocabulary. I don't think the version of Edward in your story (Wide Awake) would leave a particularly diplomatic review based on how you've written him, and you can't expect everyone to be sweet all the time.
My last point. I completely object to the use of the phrase "mentally unstable hater" referring to someone who just leaves a rude review. Not only are you making light of people with actual mental handicaps, but you yourself are making a personal attack on people you don't know, not on what they wrote. Which makes you a "hater." There's no double standard here.
Notice that I'm not posting this anonymously. I pointed out specific things I took issue with. My spelling and grammar were all correct, and I did not call anyone a name.
Am I a hater simply because I don't love you or your article?
Thanks for this. It's really an eye-opener. I was aware of some of what went on for some of the authors on the net but I had no idea that Oxy, for example, had been subjected to scariness on that level. That makes me feel sad, angry, and frustrated because really, there is not much at this point that anyone can do to avoid being victimized like that. And it is a form of victimization. Yes, those who put themselves out there on the internet have to expect to take the good with the bad, the trolls, the flamers, the anti-groups, but to go beyond that and make someone not feel safe...there is something so deeply wrong with that, and NO ONE deserves that, under any circumstance.
ReplyDeleteI think the distinction between criticism and trollism is pretty clear. I myself have been oversensitive to criticism that hasn't been very nice, but nevertheless, someone not liking your story and not being polite about it does not make them a troll. I think the difference between a flamer and a critic is you cannot have dialogue with someone who's just out to trash you for fun. With a critic, you can converse and discuss, if you so choose, and although the conversation may not be pleasant, it's someone else's opinion and we all have to deal with that as writers. With someone who just wants to ruin your day, it is so true that there is no point in confronting them, defending yourself, or talking it out in any way, and the sad fact is they KNOW they are upsetting you. The more you express it, the happier they are. Why some enjoy that so much, I will never understand.
Hey hun!
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say again how much I love your story. It has provided me an escape from all the torturous realities of life -- and a story doing that of all things really says something...
I've been personally attacked by decisions I have made with my characters as well, and it's not fun. I most definitely agree though, there is a HUGE difference between constructive critique and pure hatred...
I read on MGU that you had these 3 days where you almost gave up and quit writing for FF... I wanted to say how proud I am of you -- not just because I am a fan of your work, but bc you have the TALENT -- that you didn't quit.
You're one of the best, pure and simple. You take risks, you stick to your guns...
You're doing it the way it was meant to be done. You're not following the bandwagon. You're creating your own path, and that is a powerful -- and rare -- thing to do in this day and age.
I hope that you never remove WA from FF, and that you continue to write bc I can TELL that it is your passion and escape as well.
If you lose some readers, then so be it. You'll gain double that amount.
Keep your chin up, know you have supporters who back you up, and keep working on your passion.
Please don't let anyone get you down.
Anyone that is too cowardly to steer their own lines and want to hate on you is not worth a tear from your eyes.
As a fellow writer/reader, I wanted to get a little cheesy and say that, as a fan, I am proud of you and your accomplishments.
I read a quote that once said, "If you hate me, that means I did something right. I made an impact, and regardless of the direction I had or hadn't planned, making myself known was my goal all along."
I will stop ranting now. Just wanted to let you know that you are admirable and to stay smiling!! :D
~Angela
Skeptik - "When you have a negative review that simply states that the reviewer doesn't like the story, although without pointing out specific reasons, it's a "Hater"."
ReplyDeleteI disagree. Why would you call this person a hater? Simply because they dislike a story? That's not the way I see it at all. If they don't point anything out specifically and simply say "Meh. I don't like it." They are still a critic. Not a specific one, but they aren't being hateful in any way. If they followed it by calling the author a name and insulting them personally. YES. This is HATE. Against a person who simply wrote a story they don't like.
"The bottom line is, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to argue that someone is a "hater" because they just say they don't like the story, then what is someone who just says they love a story?"
I'm not arguing that at all. I don't know where people are making this false assumption that I somehow think everyone who doesn't like a story is a hater, because nowhere in my article do I insinuate any such thing. It's all in how people handle their dislike. Malicious and intentionally mean spirited people do exist however, and enjoy making a fuss by attacking writers. This is hate, not criticism.
"In that same vein, you mention people who personally attack the author (namely, yourself)"
No. I'm only one of many. This is why I used various authors' views in my article as examples of the consequence of hate.
"Obviously, the mindset is to ignore the negative reviews and take a positive review as a positive review, no matter what. "
I'm sorry, but I never said to ignore all negative comments, and if you can find a quote from the article that says this, I'd appreciate it. Even critically constructive reviews can be negative. There's no reason to ignore it. I suggest using them to refine your skills. This also doesn't mean negatively critical reviews should cancel out every positive review and vice versa.
"When you write something personal, not fictional, it opens you up for people to take issue with you personally. You can't say that unjust accusations are being made about you, personally, when you write something like that, that attacks specific people personally."
Yes, there is a point to be made here, and I feel like I made it. I'm not saying posting the A/N was the smartest/nicest thing in the world to do. I wouldn't do it again. Of course it opened me up for more hatred to be pointed my way. I took every bit of it, and if you noticed, I never publicly responded to them again.
"And I utterly detest the idea of a "bandwagon hater." Perhaps there are about four non-conformists out there who just hate anything that's popular, but the great majority of people don't."
I'm not writing about the greater majority. Haters aren't the greater majority. I've seen plenty of Bandwagon Haters. Mostly when a fic is popular, there is a "buzz" about it. A great example of this is FandomWank. I already explained this on MGU, but there are hundreds of people of there on the Wide Awake thread who openly bash the fic, and MYSELF, and openly admit to never having read the story.
They are only bashing it because it is popular, and it was brought to their attention, and the allure of a group bashing drew them in. There's a bandwagon with popularity. Being popular exposes you to a wider audience. To assume that something like popularity hatred doesn't exist isn't fair. I can attest to the fact that it does.
"Did I specially hate it because it was so popular? No. Was I annoyed because of the popularity of the fic, that I felt was undeserved? Yes."
Did you post intentionally degrading and insulting comments toward the author on a forum/LJ/facebook/review/PM/etc? If not, I don't see this as an issue. You disliked it because you disliked it. That's fine. But let's not assume that everyone responds in this way.
"I thought it to be unnecessary and rude for you to attack that person simply because they wrote anonymously. Not everyone has a livejournal or blogspot account that they can use to comment."
This person could have easily signed their name. And I wasn't rude in any way towards this person. I spoke to them as they spoke to me, only I wasn't being sarcastic when I defended the meaning of my article. What about the comment was rude exactly? Where was the 'attack'?
"And frankly, their comment was not offensive or 'hater'-like at all."
I never said it was. It did allude to the fact that the poster misunderstood the purpose of the article however. If explaining it further is rude, then I'm not sure I understand. You'll have to elaborate.
"I though the point of a hater was that they made no effort to be nice, yet according to you, even if someone begins by making legitimate criticism, and then doesn't finish quite so diplomatically, they're still a hater?"
If it's ended by attacking the author maliciously, then yeah. It's my personal opinion that they are. "Not quite so diplomatically" and "Viciously attacking" are two separate concepts.
"I don't think the version of Edward in your story (Wide Awake) would leave a particularly diplomatic review based on how you've written him, and you can't expect everyone to be sweet all the time."
Well... er... Edward isn't real. People like him exist surely, but I don't expect everyone to be sweet. I feel like you are continually misconstruing my meanings, Skeptik. Why is this? What exactly has led you to believe that I shun all who dislike my story? I take offense to this, because I work very hard to convey the differences between critics and haters, and even attempt to praise the value of criticism, even when it isn't pleasant or nice in any way.
"I completely object to the use of the phrase "mentally unstable hater" referring to someone who just leaves a rude review."
And I completely object to this entire statement because nowhere in my Mentally Unstable Hater description do I say... "They just leave a rude review."
No, no, no. Again, you are appear to be seeing meanings where none exist, Skeptik, and seem to be ignoring the ones I created.
Allow me to elaborate with the best example I can offer...
When a reader threatens to come to your house and brutally rape and murder you while explaining the various ways in which they would desecrate your corpse and enjoy doing so thoroughly... something about their mental state is off. I mean, I'm no professional or anything, and I may be out of line by calling the person who wrote me this mentally unstable, but... I will, and I will stand by it.
"but you yourself are making a personal attack on people you don't know, not on what they wrote."
Yes. It is on what they wrote. Refer to corpse reference above.
"Am I a hater simply because I don't love you or your article?"
No. Again, I don't know where you make this assumption that I believe anyone who dislikes what I write a "Hater", but I do encourage you to read again, and make a better effort to understand my meaning with more objective eyes.
I do appreciate criticism. I also appreciate the ability to defend the purpose of the article when it is being greatly misunderstood. Does this make me a hater of critics? I like to think not.
Thanks for the comments, Skeptic. See ya 'round on the LJ!
GAH! Ava, you are so right. Some people out there... I just don't know what to think. And I love how you use the word "Victimize" because it is so utterly correct in these circumstances, like the one with Oxy. There's simply no excuse for it.
ReplyDeleteAngie - Thanks SO much for those awesome comments, bb! I love that quote. I haven't had much hate for my story/plot/etc. I would honestly prefer it, because if it were related to something I wrote, I might be able to actually understand the victimization.
Thanks again for the totally humbling and completely undeserved comments. Those three days were dark indeed, darker then even my three death threats, but the positivity always helps me to remember why I do it in the first place. I hope other writers will think this way when they are harshly attacked.
<3
i try to adhere to the "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" rule. if i enjoy a chapter but feel like there are elements that keep it from being "great" or don't live up to the writer's potential, then i will leave a review that starts with a general compliment- because i liked the work- then i will flat out state the problematic issues that the writer might want to work out. i certainly don't expect the writer to agree with me all the time or to thank me (how big-headed would that make me?) or even acknowledge it.
ReplyDeleteif there is NOTHING at all for me to compliment, then i have no review to leave in the first place. i don't take the time to craft an opinion into words for someone who's utterly hopeless. and i really really don't understand readers who feel the need to do so. what does "hating" accomplish? it's bullshit. don't fucking hate.
hmmmm....I am totally confused. why would anyone read your article and determine that you said anyone who leaves a negative or critical review is a hater?
ReplyDeleteI think you specifically said otherwise.
In fact I know you did.
It makes me really frustrated to see such harshness and negativity about the fic. It is totally unnecessary and frankly is just mean.
sorry AG and Oxy and the others who have posted that you have had to deal with such a hostile environment. And thanks for continuing to post and write for the rest of us who try to behave like normal people.
Ooooh, nice one Jenny. I'm a personal fan of the golden rule.
ReplyDelete"Do unto others..."
I would never write an author a comment I wouldn't feel comfortable receiving myself, and contrary to what some may think, it is possible to be critical about the story and still be nice.
Eh... maybe it's just me having so much faith in humanity or some such nonsense.
Thanks Angel for the comments. IDK where they get this assumption either. And hostile environments do suck, but I like to channel the frustration. This is secretly why my Darkward is always so angry and vulgar towards others.
He reads my hate mail of course.
*grins widely*
jenny-good point.
ReplyDeletesometimes, even in my favorite fics they will have an off chapter or maybe I personally do not feel it is the authors best.
Usually when this happens and I just dont feel the love i just don't review. Honestly I may have a WTF moment or has she lost her mind? or omg...this fic totally just jumped the shark...but I keep those opinions to myself because none of those is exactly constructive.
Then, at that point i have to make a decision...do i keep reading or do i let that fic go. I have dropped fics before that i just don't like. We all have. But i do not feel the need to notify the author of this. I mean every story is not for me.
And this goes back to some of the earlier posts. If you truly do not enjoy a story why are you reading it and sending in negative reviews? Or forming a LJ page about how much something sucks? I mean....??????? I do not get this at all...
Well, I don't have an account on this blog. But I am gallantcorkscrews. So I aint anonymous. Is that how you spell it- anonymous? Meh. I don't know.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I've been accused of being a "hater". I've written a couple of harsh reviews. Sometimes I'll preface this harsh review with a compliment. Then I'll tear the chapter apart- no curse words, no personal attacks on the author, but I will go town on why Edward sounds like a homo (love the gays, but Edward shouldn't sound like a queen in a B and E fic). Sometimes, I won't preface these reviews with a compliment. Because I am.... an ass. No pussyfooting around that. I guess that makes me a cyber bully? Meh.
If I respect the writer, I want them to be conscious of their faults. I aint perfect -I aint fucking Toni Morrison- SO WHERE DO I GET OFF IN TELLING THEM OFF? I don't know. But I still want writers to be better.
And I've gotten some weird reviews calling me a sick pervert because I've written some controversial things. Meh.
Anyway, I think we all take ourselves very seriously.
----WA livejournal communities and Oxy stalkers aside (that's just... insane and scary and I'm sorry for that)-----
Hating can discourage you from writing. And that sucks. People SHOULD WRITE and being encouraged to write is amazing.
But if you are encouraged to write just for the sake of getting hollow feedback, are you writing well? Not a lot of reviewers will offer "constructive crit". By discounting hating as "mentally unstable" or "flaming"... it seems like we are conveniently brushing a lot of oppinions under the rug. Some haters feel like they need to curse to get their oppinions heard when what they say contradicts the 18374548458 other reviews that say OMG THIS WAS SO HAWWWT.
I know. This is just the Internet. Why are they getting so riled up about some fanfic?
In response:
ReplyDeleteYou are saying that basically rudeness is the main characteristic of a hater. I think this comes back to the diplomacy argument again. Some people just don't want to take the time to phrase everything nicely. Some people are just kind of jerks. But labeling them as "haters" simply because of that is overkill in my opinion.
You also asked "What about the comment [made towards the anonymous reviewer] was rude in any way?"
Well, for one thing you insinuated they were a coward ("Haters wouldn't attack a fic in PMs and reviews unless they were anonymous (hmmm...)") and called them immature ("we could have discussed it like two mature adults") seems pretty rude to me.
And frankly, how many people have you had that have threatened to rape you? My guess would be nowhere near as many as you are classifying as "Haters". You made a very clear allusion to the "Bored Awake" group on LJ, calling them haters, and yet no one there threatens to rape you. They make legitimate criticisms about the writing and the fanbase. Did you ever consider that they are private because all of your fans would attack the community were it to be open?
You continually mention Fandom Wank. Well, I went to the thread. I was, however, taken aback by one of the reviews for Wide Awake posted there. The one that says that a critic (not hater) should go die in a fire. Is it fair for you to be writing essays condemning haters when your fans are doing the same thing to your critics?
It's pretty difficult to respond to every point, since a lot of what you said was just telling me to go reread your article. So I did, and I was a bit annoyed at the definition of a controversy hater. Maybe the explanation was unclear. But, in my opinion, there are people who are going to be appalled by things like rape. Everyone is raised differently. So when someone reads a story where people are forced to carve into eachothers' skin, they might be a lot more shocked then the author. It's the same as calling whoever directed the "Saw" movies "sick" or "twisted." In fact, movies like that enjoy being called "twisted."
But feel free to clarify your explanation, AnsgtGodesss. I might not have understood it correctly.
dude,
ReplyDeletea hater is a hater.
you know it and we know it.
if you don't get it and don't understand, when EVERYONE else does.
then just drop it.
but we know, that is not your point or your goal here so it doesn't matter what anyone says to you or to anyone else. it is just continued fodder for your HATE.
now, i have to go watch rob on the oscars and calm the F down. I suggest you do the same but I think you are too busy speading the negativity to just chill out and be nice.
Wow. So I run this blog right? Why, YES I DO. I have been on vacation and look what I come home to. HOT FUCKING MESS.
ReplyDeleteOk. I have ONE MAJOR ISSUE EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT. I don't deal with Anonymous Flame well. Get a backbone. Don't be a nameles sockpuppet behind a mask. There is no excuse for that so don't bother arguing with me there. You won't win.
Another issue I am having with ALL of these "argumentative" comments: THIS IS TLYDF -- NOT A PLACE FOR ANYONE TO TAKE OUT THEIR WA/ANGSTGODDESS003 FRUSTRATIONS. It's just not. Do that mess on your own community. It's why you have it right? Do I go onto YOUR community and start shit there? No I DO NOT.
I (SMELLYIA) started this blog for the FANDOM -- THE TWILIGHT FANDOM. Nobody else and NO select group.
This is the thing -- NONE OF US GET PAID. THIS IS FREE. F-R-E-E. It's chepaer than getting a potentially shitty book, the gas to get to the bookstore, the time to wait for amazon to deliver etc... All you do is click on your web browser and read. That's it -- simple, free & convenient. You can do it unshowered in your jammies with your dog slobbering on you.
Same as this blog. Now while this blog doesn't cost me anything but my ulcer to run unlike a website like Twilighted, it does take me an extroadinary amount of time to coordinate and deliver in the fashion that we do. Graphics, GBs, ideas, articles and it goes on and on. Time is a very expensive commodity. I know in my career in the medical field, I get paid an ungodly amount of money for it. Here -- nada. I do it for the love of it. I am lucky enough to have 3 ladies who are willing to give their time to assist me in a vision of community we share as well as many GBs willing to spend their time on providing material from their creative noodles to post. All for you to read. That would be mighty expensive to buy.
But you don't. It's FREE. WE ARE IN A RECESSION -- can you afford to tailor something to your particular specifications right now? I can't and I make damn good money. So I could be VERY wrong on this, but I can't imagine that ANYONE has the time to spend obsessing over the dislike of something on any type of community to the point of following them here in a blog NOT associated with any single author or fic to express their displeasure. I just ain't got the time and I don't even have kids. And I wouldn't dream of doing so when I am most definitely not paying for it.
Now if there were some exchange of goods here, say monetary and you came up short on your order -- I could see the point of HATE. You pay for something and you should get what you pay for. But no one does in ficland -- so explain to me the economics of it because I am completely lost on this logic of Ugly Hating being justifiable in any sense. Recession people. Taxes are killing me and it doesn't look like it's getting better. So I read free shit on here and guess what? I have had the most novel idea. I don't like it -- I don't read, much less spend my expensive time (and when I say expensive time I mean everyone's because ALL of our time is expensive) on something I consider crap. There is a box on the upper right hand corner of the screen. Little white X in a red box. Click on it and the offensive material vanishes no longer causing your eyes to bleed. It's like magic -- like it never existed at all. I like that button. I press it frequently, no one knows and I'm on my merry little way.
As for something in particular....and I really HATE to do this, but I just can't not.
skeptiik -- If you were someone random who did not have an established history at flaming WA -- I would not give one damn shit. I actually find that some of the things you say quite valid and are articulated VERY WELL. I've enjoyed reading your arguments. BUT -- you do one thing that just sits all kinds of wrong on me -- you ONLY address AG. Why not the commenters or the other 3 authors who spoke on this issue and said similar things?
Also, there has been multiple times on this blog where "HATERS" have been addressed. I, personally, have been EXTREMELY vocal on this subject with regards to harassing or threatening PMs or reviews. Why have you not questioned me? WTVOC had a column post discussing material VERY similar to this...where is your dissertation on that?
These things lead me to believe you are here for one reason -- to shit on AG. Don't get me wrong. This is the interwebs. Shit on whomever you want. I am not your mama -- but DO IT ON YOUR OWN SITE THAT IS SET UP FOR THAT PURPOSE. NOT MINE.
Make no mistake here -- I care not that you hate WA or AG or whatever. Dislike, shoddy research, blah blah blah. I have worked in the medical field for YEARS. I know what this sort of thing looks like in RL as I am sure others do as well. I've heard the arguments against her and her work. Shit, I have my own which AG knows very well -- which I handle privately. Do I wax on those on a blog that is NOT AG or WA centric? NOOOOOOO. And neither should you or anyone else.
Being that the majority here feel similar -- if not exactly -- how this post states, you need to include more people in your argument other than AG to make it valid rather than what looks like an opportunity to get on the flame train with one person you seem to have issue with. This post was about how a MULTITUDE of people felt (as the other authors who contributed demonstrated).
Again, I think you handled yourself fairly well and if this wasn't AG focused, I would have NO complaints. But it is and alas I'm going to pull Blog Mother prerogative here and shut down anymore comments to this article which is just a darn shame.
Yeah, I know. I'm an awful censoring bitch. Haul me in front of the judge for it and wank the shit out of me on whatever venue you'd like. I care not. I do care that the homemade chicken & dumplings I just whipped up for me and tnuccio on our last night of vacation are getting cold and my guest is waiting patiently for me to handle this BS to watch Dollhouse on my couch. I care that I had to even bring this up to emibella and siDEADde on our fabulous weekend Hol. All so I can deal with this without going absolutely apeshit which I seem to be doing anyways. Sorry ladies. I put in a good 40 hours a week on this blog. It's my baby and these lovely ladies take THEIR time to assist me in spectacular fashion. Without them -- there would be NO blog. I will NOT tolerate any guest or admin on here being blackballed. Not happening. Tell me I can't say what goes and what doesn't. I wish you would.
TLYDF is meant for EVERYONE. It's NOT the WA FANDOM. It's the Twilight FANDOM. I cannot stress this enough. Many of us have been here WAY before WA and it's subsequent love/hate communities were an afterthought in their daddy's eye. We will be here after. This is a message to the WA lovers and haters -- quit making our fandom based off of ONE STORY. We are a COMMUNITY of multiple authors with multiple strengths & weaknesses. You have notable talented authors to fourteen year olds trying to learn a craft. You don't HAVE to read or play here. But we CHOOSE to and would like to peacefully, regardless if WA is a part of that fandom (which it proudly is) or not. WA and AG has as much right to exist as the rest of us.
It's bad enough that the Twilight FANDOM in it's infancy has to deal with the pitfalls of meta-fandoms shitting on us constantly for rookie mistakes (which I have seen in MULTIPLE FANDOMS since 2000), but really...lets make it worse by completely showing our asses. Um, no thank you. This blog is meant to help establish and extend the TWILIGHT FANDOM. Not any certain author OR fic. GET THIS STRAIGHT -- I am speaking to the people who adore and hate ANY certain fic and think this is the place to wax rhapsodic or idiotic on said author or fic. That's what reviews, PMs, LJ communities, forums (which this is NOT) or awards are for. Not a Blog bringing information and fic recs to the community at large. This is not meant to be a place for you to have Wars, but to get some slice of knowledge that you may or may not need/want. Take what you like, leave the rest and be happy you got it for free -- especially you weren't charged for the disposal of the crap you considered trash. (Yeah, garbage costs money to get rid of too -- all you gotta is click a button, no bill there.)
Never in my time here have I seen such wank. Seriously. Hot fucking mess.
OK. Now I am going to eat. Enjoy my last night of vacation. Talk to my homeslice about this BS to decompress and shut this commenting down.
I appreciate your arguments or support(all of you). And as I said on the last hot fucking mess that shat on my blog -- PLAY NICE OR DON'T PLAY.
*shakes head, wonders who has time for this, shuts laptop and goes to eat COLD chicken & dumplings*